Sunak looks like he is toast, but too many don’t knows for Labour to get complacent
10 April 2024
Hope Alex Ferguson gets a vote on Scottish independence as well as another League title
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Post
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8 May 2011
First of all congratulations to Alex Ferguson and Manchester United. Somehow I cannot see them failing to get a point out of Blackburn or Blackpool, so effectively they are Champions. He has further sealed his reputation as the country's best ever manager, and Manchester United have overtaken Liverpool as winners of the most titles in history. I know I'm biased as he's a friend of mine, but when you look at Alex's record, surely even all but the most one-eyed Liverpool fans must accept all the claims for Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley etc etc really don't stack up.
But enough of football, and back to the most important question arising from Thursday's elections - namely the future of Scotland, and a question for Alex Salmond ... Will Alex Ferguson get a vote in the independence referendum? And will my Mum?
Both have lived for many years in England, in Alex's case 25, in my Mum's more than 60. Both are as Scottish as they come, in terms of blood and character. Both have strong views about independence.
I completely understand that for last week's elections to choose MSPs for Holyrood, only those on the Scottish electoral register should have been entitled to vote. Likewise when the Labour government devolved power to create the Scottish Parliament in the first place, it was right that this was done by referendum (controversial at the time) and right that Scots in Scotland should decide.
But the decision to leave the UK is of an altogether different dimension and the rights and views of Scots outside Scotland should be taken into account.
Many Scots left Scotland for economic, educational, personal and family reasons. Surely they should have some kind of say as to whether they are Scottish, British or both.
Indeed, given how significant the break-up of the UK would be, affecting England, Wales and Northern Ireland as well as Scotland, there is a case for a UK wide referendum on the issue. I am surprised this has not been raised yet by any of the pro-Union parties and MPs.
I hope it will be as this debate moves forward.
None of the pro-Unionist parties can afford a UK wide referendum on this as they are unable to reconcile their *save the Union* speeches with their dog-whistle appeals to little Englanders on immigration and the like.
It is far more likely that the English majority would vote for separation from the so-called subsidy junkies than the Scottish electorate.
An added coimplication would be the need for Cameron and Milliband to campaign on the same platform as UKIP and the BNP.
By reducing it to a Scottish matter, they avoid that. They can also, in the unlikely event of a Yes vote, then argue for further delays while the *British* people are consulted.
I’m English, and have lived in Scotland for 8 years. I’ll get a vote, but don’t feel fully entitled as I’m not a Scot.
But I agree that all UK voters should really have a say in the break up of the Union. After all, it’ll have a huge impact on British politics if Scotland leaves. England will almost certainly be left to its fate as a Tory stronghold.
But then, maybe parts of England, like the North East, will apply to join us and we can all live in a Tory free zone!
Hi Alastair,
I take it you feel that ex-pat scots are more likely to vot to maintain the union? I wouldn’t worry, there absence will be more than compensated for by the english ex-pats living in Scotland.
Mark
Alastair
I’m surprised that you of all people, given your knowledge, nous etc, would seriously suggest that people living in Esher and Godalming should get a vote on Scotland’s national future as well as those in Edinburgh and Glasgow. I can hardly think of anything more likely to help Alex Salmond build up enthusiasm for independence than any attempt to take Scotland’s destiny out of its own hands in this way.
This could also get nasty and end up with whipped up hostility towards the Scots influencing the result – of the sort that complains about Scots in the media and running Britain, or about England subsidising Scotland financially.
There is a legitimate issue about people like your mum and Fergie, but why stop at Scots in England, Wales and NI – what about the rest of the EU, the rest of the world? Sorry, but its undoable and would be a bureaucratic nightmare to make it fair. I’m not Scottish and not in favour of breaking up the UK, but I hope we never get like the Spanish – with a mindset that seems obsessed with preserving a state, whatever Basques, Catalans or anyone might want to do.
Cameron should call a UK wide referendum on the issue on the same day as the next local elections. Would get the Tory vote out again!
The process for the independence is as follows.
1. A bill is passed in the Scottish Parliament authorising a referendum.
2. A referendum to enter the negotiations is held.
3. If passed, TERMS of independence must be decided (assets, debt, North Sea oil etc.).
4. Second referendum can only be authorized by Westminster.
5. FINAL referendum is held on independence on negotiated terms. (Even after this government has the final say on the matter. But in reality it cannot decide against the will of Scottish people.)
The Tory-led government has now decided NOT to use legal powers to block a referendum on Scottish independence. David Cameron claims to defend the Union, but the Tories know only too well that it makes sense for them to make a deal with SNP. By that way they will dominate England.
Mr Salmond will now build up support for the independence. Mr Osborne´s cuts will help him.
Tam Dalyell inverted.
How curious that those of us who have moved within our own United Kingdom may be called upon to choose between our parent nations.
How ghastly that we may come to this.
Judgement of Solomon needed to choose.
This touches Somerset to Stornoway, Johnshaven and Jedburgh to Jarrow so, yes, we must all speak up regarding the land of our birth, whersoever we may have travelled to.
This unsettles my equilibrium, There is no gain or benefit for any in this fool’s folly of an errand.
God Alastair, I’m disappointed! You sound desperate! Do you really think this is about nationality? If given the chance to ensure a Tory-free existence what would you do? The real reasons for your concern are all the more obvious given the ludicrousy of your comments. Sir Alex, and your mum are welcome back any time.
A UK wide referendum would be ridiculous – what happens if Scotland votes for independence and the rest of the UK votes to maintain the union? Wouldn’t that then create a situation akin to a political occupation of an unwilling country? We’ve seen all too clearly over the last few elections how distant the political leanings of Scotland are from the rest of the UK (or at least from England). The ultimate fate of Scotland (and yes, therefore of the UK too) can ONLY be taken by the people of Scotland, whether that includes the wider diaspora or not. And this means that Westminster politicians should not seek to influence that decision one way or another – anything else would be profoundly anti-democratic.
It’s a resident time period qualification issue for a vote this sounds like.
Didn’t certain people once get quite worked up due to the amount of votes there were coming from long overseas ex-pats once, for general elections especially? Does that still go on?
I’m currently living outwith Scotland because my husband’s career means he can’t get a decent job there (he’s an astronomer), so should I get a vote? We were able to vote in the AV referendum but not the Scottish Parliament elections because they are considered “local” and while living outside the country we can only vote on UK issues. With that in mind, I will do everything I can to be in Scotland on the day of the referendum, so that I can tick the YES box. Even if I *can* get a proxy for that referendum, I really really want to be home for it!
But what about my mum, who by virtue of being married to my US father has lived outside Scotland for more than 45 years, and outside the UK also for most of that time. Does she get a vote? Personally I would argue not, because she hasn’t voted in a single UK or Scottish election in those 45 years. But I will vote in each one that I can, no matter how long we are here in Chile, I maintain my vote in my constituency, I want to make sure my voice remains audible.
As a ”
one-eyed Liverpool fan” Alastair, I agree that Fergie has been a great manager over a long period of time. So long in fact that it has taken him virtually his whole Man U career to overcome those lesser lights of Shankly and Paisley.
The question of the Scots leaving the Union should surely be up to them. As an English taxpayer we shall certainly not miss having to give them all of the extra cash to maintain their free universities etc etc.
Labour is of course the biggest loser so that would be a good thing too for England.
Interesting view-I left Glasgow almost 30 years ago for educational reasons, then stayed in England to raise a family, work etc. I would like a vote ( to vote no) but not really sure if it would be justified. If someone lft say Australia to come here 30 years ago would it be justifiable to expect them to have a vote on leaving the commonwealth or becoming a republic…
Personally I regard both AF and your mum as English as they’ve chosen to live here. Presumably they could vote in the independence referendum should they decide to move back to Scotland?
But what about England? Still no parliament and no voice. Still underfunded and getting the worst most expensive services – still treated with contempt by the UK parliament.
Labour or Condems, AV or FPTP makes no difference in England as the UK parliament always gets in – FOR NOW.
Clock ticking on your
“Union”. Home rule for England.
Alex Salmond wants to make Scotland independent by stealth. He knows the Scots won’t just cut their bonds with the rest of the UK. It’s too big a challenge. However, a gradual approach could work – and Salmond knows it. To your point re should those not living in Scotland be allowed to vote – I’d say no. Those who live in Scotland (be they Scots or not) are entitled to vote on something that directly impacts on where they live. Independence may impact on the rest of the UK, but so did many years of Tory rule (including the present) that Scotland voted against – but still had to suffer. If the Scots want to go out on their own (and all the polls suggest they don’t) they should be allowed the democratic entitlement to choose for themselves.
The participation, or not, of the Scottish diaspora will develop into a huge issue especially once it becomes clearer to Westminster that it won’t be in the SNP’s interests to allow it. That’s why Salmond is fairly shtum on the matter. It needs to be a UK-wide referendum (but no wider), thereby including Scots living elsewhere in the UK but also the many non-Scots now living north of the border.
Scottish independence is a decision that affects the Union and therefore the whole of the UK, and should therefore be a UK-wide decision.
As someone who wants to see the Union preserved, I’m not sure, however, that a UK-wide referendum would give the desired result. There are plenty of anti-Scots in the rest of the UK (OK, England) just as there are plenty of anti-English in Scotland. They feed each other.
Olli is right that the Tories are likely to face both ways on this, given that a break with Scotland would make perpetual Tory rule in England more likely.
On balance, I think we should leave it to the Scots to decide – there are, after all, plenty of sensible Scots (the majority, up to now) who don’t buy the whole Salmond package and have voted him in again to run Scotland within the UK, punching above his weight in Westminster, as he will. A very different thing from supporting Scottish independence.
I am unsure why you are ignoring all politics other than Scots, Al. Unless, you are currently interviewing Dead Ed to see if you can help him, for he needs all the help he can get.
On checking, he abandoned his Twitter site after 19th April, has not put a blog on his own website since 10th March, or posted a speech since 28th February!
Is this man still alive? Or has he found a new way of communicating with the faithful.
We should be told.
I suppose that the Scots have taken one look at Westminster and said ‘no, thanks’. The Tories won’t mind, will they, given that they intend to govern the south for a hundred years and are happy to achieve their goal at whatever cost to the union? So I guess it’s a done deal. Thanks a lot, Scotland (and Labour). Shall we cancel the high speed rail link now?
Just remember that Salmond isn’t an economist… And an independent Scotland will have to plumb new depths with its own Eurovision entry.
I think it was more a case of Arsenal losing the league than Moan Utd winning it. Agree with the political points though!
Think it was more a case of Arsenal losing the league than Moan Utd winning it, but still. Agree with poltical points though!
The SNP will decide.
I think you’ll find Salmond is an economist. Before entering politics, he was Chief Economist at the Bank of Scotland.
There is absolutely no need for perpetual Tory rule in England.
All that is required is for Labour to create an English Labour to go along with Scottish Labour and Welsh Labour. And for Labour to make a manifesto that will work in the English interest.
Oh and recognition and representation for England in an the re-established English parliament.
Unfortunately the British left still seems to hate the idea of England for some reason. Strange really when you look at the history of social justice – Magna Carta, peasants revolt, Levellers, tolpuddle martyrs, Chartism etc. Bizarre that the left hates the country that spawned it.
Ed recently described himself as “the man for middle England” he should prove it by demanding a voice for his English constituents and the rest of England.
It would seem hardly fair to classify as ex-pats and therefore
disenfranchise those Scots who have simply chosen to live and perhaps work in
another part of Britain. As I understand it that is a substantial number of
people (800k?). I do not know of any research so don’t know if inclusion would help or hinder and an independence cause.
I personally have a
hard job thinking of the rest of the United Kingdom as ‘other’ than me which is
basically what this comes down to. Culture
rather than nationalism is more important to me.
I have a huge affection the country I was born in, N.Ireland,
lived most of my life in Scotland (a country which I love and has given me many
opportunities for a great llfe) and have worked in England, continuing to visit
often and feel I very much belong there too. The notion of independence just
gives me a gut reaction of loss rather than of anything gained.
Hear hear!If the English ex-pats have any sense of decency they would abstain and allow us Scots to decide.I couldn’t stomach the thought of my country’s future being decided by foreigners or non-residents.
You mean, the dreaded RBS? Anyway, he’s made all sorts of promises that one could not keep in perpetuity, nice though they are.
“If someone lft say Australia to come here 30 years ago would it be justifiable to expect them to have a vote on leaving the commonwealth or becoming a republic…”
This analogy doesn’t quite hold up because of the issue citizenship. I would expect that if I as an Australian who had left Australia but maintained my Australian citizenship I would get a vote, if I had given up my Australian citizenship I wouldn’t.
Because Scotland is not an independent nation-state but rather part of the
UK it is much more difficult to work out who should qualify for eligibility to vote on the issue of independence. One possible solution would be to specify that a person would have had to have lived in Scotland for a minimum amount of time. This would mean that you wouldn’t end up with people who have minimal attachment to the issue voting. This of course is a problematic solution but I doubt an unproblematic solution exists.