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Hibridele vor salva Pamintul iar Hummerul il va distruge...

This topic is about Hibridele vor salva Pamintul iar Hummerul il va distruge..., the author, f1anatic, wrote about: SAU POATE INVERS QUOTE Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage By Chris Demorro - Staff Writer (Newspaper in Connecticut) The Toyota Prius has be ... To read more just scroll down

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f1anatic
post Mar 20 2007, 02:25 AM
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SAU POATE INVERS

QUOTE
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro - Staff Writer (Newspaper in Connecticut)


The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.


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ozz86651
post Mar 20 2007, 05:51 AM
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He might have a point dar mi se pare argumentat in genul EvZ. Evident ca un hibrid ia foarte multa energie sa fie fabricat, ba chiar ca sa fie folosit. Problema e ca energia aia nu provine (sau nu ar trebui) din petrol. Cu "putina" straduinta ar putea fi in intregime atomica (nu e asa simplu caci un numar gigantic de centrale atomice ar trebui construit ca sa inlocuiasca carbunele si petrolul). Iar un hibrid nu tine 100.000 de mile ce naiba. Si nici hummerul 300. Amindoua tin la fel, vreo 200. Probabil ca la hibrid schimbi bateria o data in timpul asta, ceea ce nu-i putin lucru.


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James Kilowatt
post Mar 20 2007, 08:57 AM
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Americanii studiaza si ideea Hummerului hibrid de ceva timp smile.gif Evident, pentru aplicatii militare, le mareste autonomia si le usureaza problema de logistica. Sotia primea la servici o revista de armament americana si am fost uimit cate aplicatii "verzi" provin de fapt din domeniul militar si cata cercetare (fundamentala, nu doar aplicata) se face pentru armament...


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HalbaSus
post Mar 20 2007, 10:13 AM
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Daca luam in considerare costul de fabricatie atunci toti cei care isi cumpara masini noi sunt niste criminali ai mediului inconjurator... Sincer consider ca hibridele nu sunt atat de grozave, mai ales "performance hybrids" gen lexus 450h... bagi piciorul in pedala si in 5 minute ai terminat bateria si ramai cu un V8 care consuma aproape cat 2 GTI-uri.
Daca vrei sa fii "verde" mi se pare mult mai eficient sa popularizezi GPL-ul, biodieselul eventual etanolul sau alti combustibili alternativi. O alta masura care ar ajuta mult masinile ar fi "o cura de slabire"... care sa readuca masinile moderne la greutatea pe care o aveau acum 20-30 de ani... Golf I GTI avea 830 kg... Golf V GTI are 1391... E drept ca golful I avea spatiul interior mai mic decat un polo dar tehnologia a progresat suficient in acest timp incat sa putem face un Golf de marimea golfului V si cu maxim 1000 kg. Consumul de carburant s-ar reduce exponential daca fiecare masina ar intra "regim".

Alte exemple:
Land Rover Defender 110 (1983) - 1750 kg
Land Rover Discovery (2004) - 2504-2718 kg

Toyota Corolla (1966) - 700 kg
Toyota Corolla (2006) - 1290-1365 kg

BMW 320i (1975) - 1030 kg
BMW 320i (2005) - 1425 kg


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Paul46623
post Mar 20 2007, 11:11 AM
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"Performance hybrids" mi se pare cea mai mare tampenie inventata vreodata de mintea umana. Daca-i hibrid apai sa fie "economy", ca doar d-aia a aparut tehnologia asta, nu sa ajute mastodontii de 3 tone sa consume cu trei litri mai putin la suta (adica ceva in genul 13 in loc de 16). Sa fie ceva gen un Loremo diesel-electric de vreo 600 kg, nu Lexus 450h sau alte aberatii d-astea.

P.S.: Honda Insight is where it's at, man!



Edited for: Language.


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James Kilowatt
post Mar 20 2007, 11:31 AM
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@Halba
Degeaba promovezi biodieselul daca nu-l poti produce in cantitatile necesare... valabil si cu bioetanolul care prin Europa tot nu poate fi produs in cantitate suficienta. Se chinuie unii la faca diesel sau etanol din celuloza (inclusiv in laboratorul unde cu onoare am activa in Franta) ca sa poata transforma cvasitotalitatea biomasei in combustibil (nu doar uleiul sau zaharul) fara a consuma mai multa energie decat se produce, insa sunt departe inca de a fi ceva realizabil la scara industriala.


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air_wolf
post Mar 20 2007, 11:38 AM
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electric frate. cu masini ca vechile "poste" - o lasi si iei alta. si multe scutere si motociclete. asta e solutia.


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ozz86651
post Mar 20 2007, 05:55 PM
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Insight e o masina mica cu doua locuri. Diferenta ar fi ca vad un Prius la fiecare 10 masini dar nu am mai vazut un Insight de vreun an sau asa ceva. Honda si alti producatori ascund hibridele sub aceeas caroserie (de ex. Honda Civic Hybrid) si nu e o idee buna de marketing. Omul cind are hibrid vrea sa stie toata lumea ca lui ii pasa. Din simplul aspect de branding si marketing (caroserie separata) cred ca a cistigat Priusul de departe la hibride.


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Baby Blues
post Mar 20 2007, 11:07 PM
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Cred ca la nivel mondial s-ar putea gasi resursele sa se fabrice bioetanol si biodiesel. Probabil nimeni nu -si bate capul decat la nivel de proiecte. Am inteles ca e o directive europeana dar nu stiu cat de restrictiva.


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Han.solo
post Mar 21 2007, 12:08 AM
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Articolul respectiv e o mare ineptie. Sau daca vreti un PR bun pentru GM.
Evident ca o masina facuta din tabla Sidex va costa mai putin decat una din tabla galvanizata. Circuitele electronice sofisticate, crash-test, economizoare, amortizoare, etc, aduc la un cost de mediu de plangem toti dupa trabant.
Studiul ,,dust to dust" a fost facut de CNWM. Pentru conformitate:
http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy
La http://www.hybridcars.com/environment-stor...ergy-costs.html e un comentariu al sefului CNWM care spune cum a fost facut studiul. Merita citit, omul a fost bine intentionat (cred) dar media a preluat in stil balcanic rezultatele (ca doar se intampla si peste ocean, nu doar la noi).
Pe scurt, Prius e tehnologie noua neamortizata, calculata la 100000 mile lifetime, Hummer tehnologie veche amortizata calculata la 200000mile. Ceva imi spune ca un Prius ar avea totusi un lifetime mai mare ca un Hummer, totusi.

Pentru negativisti, performance hibrid e o chestie mai buna decat clasicul hibrid. La http://www.km77.com/marcas/lexus/2006/gs/450h/t01.asp avem un test cu GS; tradus:
,,The mean consumption accredited of the GS 450h is 7.9 l/100 km. There is no other car of this size that gives those benefits and has a so low consumption, neither Diesel gasoline nor"
Si mai interesant, pentru cine crede ca bateria tine 2s:
,,In my habitual route of consumption by railcar, at an average speed that allows me to cross 210 km in average hour and, the 9.5 consumption was l/100km. In order to obtain it, it was not necessary to be specially careful with the accelerator. In fact, great part of the passage I did it using the control of speed (of active type), which implies to spend something more of fuel.

A Mercedes-Benz E500 (the previous version of 306 CV) did not spend in a very similar route 11.0 l/100 km a Diesel engine of this power is economic either: the BMW 535d (test of this model) spent 9.0 l/100 km to an average of 125 km/h; at the same speed that the Lexus would have spent more."

A se vedea si RX400h, cu performante mai bune si consum mai mic decat un X5.


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Iulian HondaFan
post Mar 21 2007, 12:44 AM
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in primul rand dati-mi voie sa nu fiu de acord cu articolul. discutia a mai aparut pe edmunds.com; greencarcongress.com si in final rezulta ca diferenta de cost a unui hibrid fata de o masina conventionala este de pana la 5000$. nickelul se poate obtine si fara poluare si bateriile din hibrizi sunt refolosibile. in plus noile generatii de baterii vor fi pe lithium, iar pretul pachetelor de baterii va scadea prin productia de masa.

din link-ul lui han.solo:

http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

QUOTE(Paul46623)
"Performance hybrids" mi se pare cea mai mare tampenie inventata vreodata de mintea umana. Daca-i hibrid apai sa fie "economy", ca doar d-aia a aparut tehnologia asta, nu sa ajute mastodontii de 3 tone sa consume cu trei litri mai putin la suta (adica ceva in genul 13 in loc de 16). Sa fie ceva gen un Loremo diesel-electric de vreo 600 kg, nu Lexus 450h sau alte aberatii d-astea.

P.S.: Priusul e o basina. Honda Insight is where it's at, man!


Paule, te rog controleaza-ti limbajul. te stiu suficient de inteligent ca sa te poti exprima si fara a apela la metafore de genul "basina"...

hibrizii de performanta sunt si ei de preferat decat mastodontii integral pe benzina.sistemul hibrid se refra in principal la recuperarea unei parti din eenrgia de franare. este un sistem folosit si pe masinile exclusiv electrice si conceptual - economisirea energiei de franare face sens. in plus uzarea mult mai mica a placutelor de frana ar fi un alt avantaj ( fie el si minor).
Accord hybrid - V6 de 3.0l plus motor electric; combinatie mai performanta decat Accordul V6 si chiar oleaca mai economica. diferenta de pret e insa mare ( vreo 4000$).

si uite o masina extrem de sportiva integral electrica.

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1


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Paul46623
post Mar 21 2007, 02:16 AM
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Ai dreptate. Mi-am modificat mesajul.

Din cauza esecului (voit sau nu; vezi "Who Killed the Electric Car" et. al.) EV-1 si al faptului ca vehiculele electrice existente pe piata arata ca niste golf-carturi ceva mai mari (vezi Reva/G-Wiz) BEV-urile nu prea au parte de o reputatie prea buna. Aparitia Tesla si a vehiculelor asemanatoare poate schimba aceasta perceptie (mai ales daca apar si alea 200 de unitati de Eliica).
Problema unui BEV e autonomia. O masina electrica sport care poate bate mar orice alta masina CI sport (cu exceptia Veyron si alte OZN-uri d-astea) n-are nevoie de mai mult de 200 km. O masina de familie insa are, si aici tehnologia pur electrica da rateuri. Consumul e prea mare; aici intervine hibridizarea. De felul in care e facuta aceasta depinde eficienta finala a sistemului. Cei mai eficienti hibrizi sunt cei in care motorul CI are rolul de a actiona generatorul, iar masina este propulsata exclusiv electric; cate un motor la fiecare roata pentru full-AWD constant. Motorul CI este tinut la turatie constanta - eficienta maxima.

Bateriile cu nichel sau litiu sunt o ramura moarta. Viitorul apartine bateriilor Pb/acid din generatia a cincea (cred ca-i a cincea), cum sunt cele produce de Firefly, PowerTech sau EffPower. Sunt construite din materiale ieftine, usor disponibile (mai ales in comparatie cu litiul), iar procesul de reciclare al plumbului este deja bine pus la punct.


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air_wolf
post Mar 21 2007, 07:07 AM
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cum naiba pot japonezii sa mearga cu motoarele de 500/600/700 cmc??? si de aici pina la a baga astfel de hibride nu cred ca mai e mult. mergi 200km electric si apoi inca 300 carburant. masina o poti face din materiale reciclate.
eu cred ca "nu se vrea", nu ca "nu se poate". si nu vrea cumparatorul. oricum e un topic nasol, plin de ipocrizie...


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HalbaSus
post Mar 21 2007, 08:30 AM
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Eu am impresia ca problema consumului de benzina e oarecum similara cu problema colesterolului... Medicii au spus ca nu e bine sa mananci asa multa grasime si automat au aparut o groaza de vegetarieni in timp ce majoritatea au continuat sa manance gratare, fripturi si cartofi prajiti in grasime. Nu rezolvam nimic daca introducem cateva masini ultratehnologizate (prius, lexus 450h, etc.) in timp ce restul circula cu H2 si Escalade. Daca s-ar reduce la jumatate consumul de petrol ar fi deja un pas extrem de important, ori pentru a obtine asta nu avem nevoie de hibride sau masini electrice. Ar fi suficient sa reducem drastic numarul SUV-urilor inutile (si sa le schimbam cu sedanuri, break-uri sau hatch-uri), sa trecem cat mai multe masini pe GPL si biodiesel si sa reducem cat mai mult greutatea masinilor. Desigur, si hibridele pot contribui la reducerea consumului de carburant, dar atat timp cat ele au un procent foarte mic din piata castigul ecologic e minim.


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James Kilowatt
post Mar 21 2007, 08:44 AM
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Totusi, articolul e clar exagerat... dar are o doza de adevar. Bun, Prius e mai verde decat Hummer de la constructie la reciclare. Insa de ce trebuie comparat cu Hummer? O compacta turbodiesel sau un benzinar istet ( de ex, ceva pe la 1L turbo gen motorul de Smart, sau daca se poate sa fie si cu injectie directa) de 110CP (cat prius) nu consuma cu mult mai mult, e mai ieftina si mai putin energofaga de construit si reciclat si nici nu necesita baterii poluante. Si nici nu o traiesc mai putin decat Prius.
Valabil si pentru Lexus hybrid, consumul mediu e dat la 7.9 iar 535d la 8.0... nu 0.1l/100km omoara balenele smile.gif

Asta nu inseamna ca hibridele nu au viitor... insa nu sunt INCA la potentialul maxim. Prius nu da inca pe dinafara nici la capitolul economie si probabil nici la ecologie. Insa generatia urmatoare cine stie... Cand o aparea o generatie de baterii capabila sa haleasca 500kw si o generatie de cabluri in stare sa pliumbe catralioanele de amperi atunci sa te tii de recuperare de energie la franare...


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Han.solo
post Mar 21 2007, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE(Paul46623)
Cei mai eficienti hibrizi sunt cei in care motorul CI are rolul de a actiona generatorul, iar masina este propulsata exclusiv electric; cate un motor la fiecare roata pentru full-AWD constant. Motorul CI este tinut la turatie constanta - eficienta maxima.

Bateriile cu nichel sau litiu sunt o ramura moarta. Viitorul apartine bateriilor Pb/acid din generatia a cincea (cred ca-i a cincea), cum sunt cele produce de Firefly, PowerTech sau EffPower. Sunt construite din materiale ieftine, usor disponibile (mai ales in comparatie cu litiul), iar procesul de reciclare al plumbului este deja bine pus la punct.


Paul, si eu m-am exprimat pe alt topic ca tipul de hibride descris de tine (cum e cel de la PML) sunt cei mai interesanti (ICE la randament/sarcina optima, AWD in cel mai bun sens, etc). Insa astept sa vad in realitate cum se comporta, la aceste hibride rezerva de energie din baterie e foarte mica (culmea, mai mica decat la un Prius) si nu vad cum poti urca un deal cu ea. Iar la drum intins energia din franare trebuie stocata in ceva pentru a fi disponibila la accelerari. Parca am vazut cifre relativ la necesarul de putere la viteza constanta; daca la 100km/h constant ai nevoie de 50kw, deja e o cifra mare.
Litiul e destul de raspandit in lume; posibil sa ai dreptate cu plumbul, dar la bunurile de larg consum (notebook, etc) bateriile Li-Ion s-au dovedit destul de bune...


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20krpm
post Mar 21 2007, 09:28 AM
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pf. asa cum spunea cineva prin carticica aia a lui murphy, "cu suficiente date statistice se poate demonstra orice". hai sa facem duelul intre extreme, hummer si prius, si sa-i lasam sa cistige cind pe unul, cind pe altul. intre timp noi mergem la serviciu cu ce e mai pe buget, cu ce ne place sa conducem, sau cu ce ne dam mari.

inca n-am vazut o forma de energie care sa nu produca poluare. daca rulezi masini care consuma benzina se face fum in oras, daca rulezi masini electrice se face fum afara din oras, si daca rulezi hibride se face fum in ontario. si daca rulezi masini cu motoare pe ulei din oala in care-ai facut cartofi prajiti, miroase de-ti lasa gura apa. cum e mai bine? unde vrem sa avem fumul, oameni buni? "cit mai departe de mine" e in acelasi timp "in gradina vecinului".


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air_wolf
post Mar 21 2007, 09:38 AM
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aro merge si cu tuica. corcoduse cres peste tot, pe unde vrei si unde nu vrei. sa mergem deci pe tuica!!!! (pe bune ca sint dieseluri ce merg pe tuica)

eu zic ca in loc sa reducem numarul SUV-urilor sa reducem numarul masinilor cu motoare de peste 1000cmc. e mai misto asa? este.
btw, un 5.7 EFI din 2007 polueaza mai putin ca un 1.9tdi din 2003 biggrin.gif

de asta spun ca e plina de ipocrizie orice discutie de genul asata. ideea e "sa moara capra vecinului", sa polueze ei mai putin si tot tacimul. sa platim impozit la km in toata lumea, tarif unic, si atunci o sa se vada cine si ce si cit consuma. macar in europa sa se faca asta.


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2 * "Garsoniera" - HJ61 TD (4000cmc) si "Sugativa"- FJ62V (4000cmc) carburatie
"Furia Verde" - R5 TL (845cmc)
WARNING: where we go there are no roads
"Life is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get." - Forrest Gump
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HalbaSus
post Mar 21 2007, 09:46 AM
Post #19


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Sa mergem pe tuica ??? Have you lost your mind ? Un litru de benzina e aproximativ 1 euro (din care mai mult de jumate sunt taxe), un litru de tuica (la negru, deci fara nici o taxa) nu il scoti sub 2 euro. Iar daca ai reusi sa obtii tuica la 1 euro... tu iti dai seama ce ar fi la benzinarii ? Tot felul de oameni cu pompa in gura drunk.gif


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"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary... that's what gets you." -Jeremy Clarkson
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ozz86651
post Mar 21 2007, 09:46 AM
Post #20


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E nu-i chiar asa. Motoarele d emasina sint foparte ineficiente in regimuri trazitorii. De asta ideea e sa faci energie in alta parte printr-o mdetoda mai eficienta. Si dupa aia sa pierzi din energia aia in cabluri si transformatoare si prize si energie chimca (baterii) biggrin.gif. Oricum chiar si asa ajungi mai bine.

Cit despre ce evil e hummerul, e o timpenie la nivel global. A ajuns hummerul calul de bataie al tuturor. Hummerurile orict de risipitoare ar fi si orice ar arata ele despre proprietar smile.gif sint totusi foarte putine. Daca ar disparea toate din lume miine diferenta nu s-ar vedea nici la a 3a zecimala de procent. Mult mai multe decit hummeruri vad corvette, sau M5, Pontiac GTO, sau felurite masini de lux si amegeuri, da de alea nu se ia nimeni. Si nu sint sigur ca consuma muuult mai putin.


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