| Cosmo |
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| admin |
 Posted: 10/27/2006 at 7:14 PM Post subject: |
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Hello Cosmo
I think that auction might have some misinformation. As far as I know, Travis Bean did not "work" for Kramer, but Gary Kramer did work for Travis Bean. I'm not sure why they said TB designed it.. does anyone out there have any additional info on this?
Here is a link to TravisBeanGuitars.com, but specifically the Kramer story:
http://www.travisbeanguit.....seaction/history.main.htm
MetalNecks
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| Rik |
| Posted: 10/28/2006 at 09:20 AM Post subject: |
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The seller said that it was designed by Travis Bean because he probably just didn't know better. They skim thru the Kramer story and toss out a few facts and mix them all up a lot.
Rik
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| hogrot |
| Posted: 11/02/2006 at 2:07 PM Post subject: |
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It's kind of funny the way people put that into auctions. In a way I guess Bean did design them. Gary Kramer stole the idea. That's the way I understand it, anyway.
Almost every aluminum neck Kramer on ebay says Travis Bean somewhere in the auction title. My buddy did the same thing. Beans are very hot right now and it's a way to get more attention paid to your auction.
As far as I know, Gary Kramer kind of ripped the idea off from Bean. He had to do it with a bolt-on neck because Bean owned the patent for an aluminum neck-through design. I'm not really sure how Kevin at Electrical is able to make his guitars unless he's got something worked out with Mr. Bean or maybe the patent expired.
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| blackmarker |
| Posted: 11/02/2006 at 2:36 PM Post subject: |
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A patent does not prevent someone from copying, it gives the patent holder the right to demand production of the copied patent stop.
I have a TB clone made by Greg Bailey. Mine uses a real TB body and fits perfectly. It even has the "T" headstock. I am sure it is a an infringement on the patent. Why would Travis care - he's not making guitars anymore. These clones are not made by huge companies bilking consumers, they are all hand-made by small-time builders. I think of these clones as more of a tribute to his revolutionary designs than stolen intellectual property.
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| hogrot |
| Posted: 11/02/2006 at 2:51 PM Post subject: |
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Thanks man I didn't realize how patents worked.
Your guitar- you bought it off ebay about 3 months ago?
It went for alot more than I thought it would- it's got stars on the tone knobs? It was a sweet looking guitar... if it's the same one I'm thinking of. It's the only one of Bailey's that I know of matched with an actual Bean body.
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| bryanedp9 |
| Posted: 11/02/2006 at 7:06 PM Post subject: |
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Gary Kramer didn't steal the idea at all. Don't you think it's a bit strange that TB quit making guitars practically as soon as Kramer came out? Travis Bean became disinterested in making guitars, but wanted to keep the rights to the design, so Gary put wood inserts in his neck on the basis that it's lighter and not as cold to the touch (which was mostly just to change the design enough to produce), and he changed the headstock for obvious reasons. I've met Gary Kramer, and he's not exactly the kinda guy to steal. He just wanted to keep making aluminum necks, but Travis didn't, so he had to go do his own thing.
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| JimBo |
| Posted: 11/02/2006 at 9:12 PM Post subject: |
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Actually, according to VintageKramer.com, it's stated that aluminum neck era ran from 1976 to 1985..
http://www.vintagekramer.com/alum.htm
But, Travis Bean stopped making Beans in 1979. Thats three years where both companies were producing similar necks.
I think to say that Kramer 'stole' the idea is harsh and I agree with bryanedp9 points. I think Kramer and Bean worked together.. and they had a difference of opinion.. except for one.... they liked the aluminum neck. Kramer was obviously a better business man.. and he knew he could take things to a different level... which he did, and that is absolutely great. I also think throughout the years, there has been a lot of myths about the Kramer vs Bean which have blown out of proportion. I was really glad to read the history article on the Travis Bean site stating Kramer's side of the story posted by the admin:
http://www.travisbeanguit.....seaction/history.main.htm
And now we have new guys developing great guitars spawned form the ideas laid down from Bean and Kramer.. and not to mention that Veleno was doing it before both of them. I'm glad this site is getting everyone together.. I think it's all really interesting.
JimBo
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| blackmarker |
| Posted: 11/03/2006 at 12:35 PM Post subject: |
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quote Hogrot: i.Your guitar- you bought it off ebay about 3 months ago?
It went for alot more than I thought it would- it's got stars on the tone knobs? It was a sweet looking guitar... if it's the same one I'm thinking of. It's the only one of Bailey's that I know of matched with an actual Bean body./i
No, that one is not mine. The Bailey I bought came up for sale in September. It's a Standard clone, the only real difference being a phenolic fretboard rather than traditional rosewood. Greg used and real Standard body (not a refin- it's got all the wear and dents of a 25 year old body), made the pickguard, covers, and backplate.
I really wanted to give Kevin my money, but this one came up and for a little over $1100 shipped to my door I could not pass it up. It's my # 1 and I don't see myself needing to play any other guitar anytime soon.
I have more in the pic thread, but here's a body shot. It's got a great piece of koa (not as nice as your though).
http://img.photobucket.co.....TB1000/tb-front-angle.jpg
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| hogrot |
| Posted: 11/06/2006 at 11:33 AM Post subject: |
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Nice one Cosmo.
If I was Travis Bean, that would probably piss me off that he carved a T into the headstock, but maybe I'm being petty. Actually, I'm NOT Travis Bean and it DOES piss me off.
I was close to bidding on one of these Bailey customs myself, the one with the stars on the tone knobs that I thought might've been yours, Cosmo. I think it was the carved out T that kept me from bidding. Have you played an original Bean? I'd like to know what the differences are (besides the pickups).
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| blackmarker |
| Posted: 11/06/2006 at 1:47 PM Post subject: |
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I am aware there will always be people who will be put off by this guitar. Beans are a niche piece and there is a tremendous amount of fraternity among owners. People spend huge amounts of money most times to own them these days. As a person who knows exactly what they want, and plays all of his guitars, I have no interest in resale value or manes on headstocks. Beans are great guitars, but to me they are not worth the price they command today. I really do not see myself ever needing or wanting to spend $2k or more for any guitar. I'm not bagging on any Bean owners, this is just my own personal view. I'm interested in the tone and feel I have..I don't care who gets me there.
My copy is really no different than going to an offshore retailer and buying a Tokai, Edwards or Burny (or even USACG) Strat or Les Paul copy....the only difference being that in my case the patent holder is NOT losing business due to my purchase. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mr. Bean and his design, as does Greg Bailey. If Travis was still making guitars or had interest in licensing his patent I would not have made this purchase, and I have no doubt in my mind Greg would not be making these copies. Greg is not in the business of making these guitars to dig into anyones sales and at the prices he sells his pieces for he can't be making much money at all on them. Greg is a small time builder who makes a few guitars a year and makes sure they are quality pieces players will enjoy.
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| Kevin |
| Posted: 11/06/2006 at 11:39 PM Post subject: Patents and Messengers |
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Just for kicks, Beans patent was focused solely on the aluminum neck assembly with the pickups bolted directly to it. I believe the headstock was involved, but that can be trade marked which lasts for quite sometime whereas a patent lasts for 20 years from approval. So Bailey might get in trouble, that is if Bean even gives a shit anymore. I have a good feeling he doesnt.
Beans wording was strange in the patent due to Velenos all aluminum design. Theres also another brand called Messenger that beat both Veleno and Bean to the punch also even more explaining Beans wording in the patent. Messengers had aluminum necks and hollow wood bodies. Pretty cool. They were made in the early 60s. Good luck finding one, Ive been searching for a long long time.
The Kramer and Bean battle was simple. Kramers were forged and Beans were billet. Forging is fast and billet is not. I read were Bean lost money on almost every instrument due to costs. So Kramer won. Ive just always thought that Kramers were a bit of a rushed Ill beat you to it version of a good idea between an employer and former employee. Its not that I dont like them, I just prefer a Bean.
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