My Rocky Mountain Element 50, only lasted 2.5 years
So as stated below my Rocky Mountain Element 50 Dual Suspension frame broke
while out riding on Friday morning 2006-10-20. As the frame snapped just below
the shock mount I just looked at and though, ahh well something was wrong
there, they will replace it under warranty. The
warranty says 5 years
for dual suspension frames. Of course it also says under what is not covered
"B.Consequential damage or any damage caused by accident, misuse or abuse."
and "C.Improper assembly and/or lack of proper maintenance," and there is the
other clause that the majority of bicycle manufacturers seem to place in their
warranty now days under What will void your warranty "A.Competition racing".
Anyway as you may suspect this is leading up to the Australian Importer of
Rocky Mountain (Advance Traders) have rejected the warranty claim, Rocky
Mountain are standing by the call Advance Traders have made. Their reason for
rejecting the warranty claim is that the shock pressure was too low when it
was bought into the store. I have been running the shock at 150 psi since I
bought the bike. I can not remember exactly why I chose this pressure, though
mostly it was from riding it, looking at how much it sagged, checking to
ensure the shock was not bottoming out while riding (tie a zip tie around the
shock shaft) and setting it to the pressure that seemed to give about 1 inch
sag and felt comfortable.
Rocky Mountain have since said the pressure should have been around 190 psi
for someone my weight. However I am trying to work out why a low pressure in
the shock would cause the frame to break. What Advance had to say on this was
somewhat had to interpret.
You are correct in saying that a standard triangle frame should not
break in the middle of the tube, which would probably be a sufficient
point if the bike were a hardtail. But, because you have a moving rear
end, it's highly likely that excess force (due to heavy impact and / or
undersprung shock) through a certain area will cause the problem you
have experienced. "The key to it's design is that it doesn't rely on
the shock as a structural component of the suspension." (Rocky Mountain
2004 catalogue - Element - Design). If the shock were a structural part
of the design I would expect the shaft of the shock to bear the brunt of
the force and bend, or the shock bolts to do the same instead of the
force being transmitted through the frame.
So they do not even answer my query as to why a low shock pressure will cause
the break, it seems they suggest it is highly unlikely to cause the problem I
have experienced with a moving rear end. I have asked in my email why the low
shock pressure would cause the break. There is nothing in the warranty or
owners manual suggesting the frame is in grave danger of breaking with low
pressure in the shock. Also the claim made that the warranty guy at rocky
mountain has never seen a frame break there before, I think would suggest
there must have been something wrong with this specific frame.
The price they have offered a replacement front triangle to me is AUD $750,
however I still do not understand why the low shock pressure is being used as
a reason for rejecting my warranty claim. Anyway links to parts of this page
are at the top to make it easier to see different things I have written about here.
I am not an engineer so I am waiting for some feedback from friends who are to
see what someone who knows about this stuff would say on the issue. It is
interesting to note that no onw from either the importer or Rocky Mountain
have looked at the frame or seen it themselves. They are basing the rejection
on photos I took and on asking the bike shop I some questions about it.
Update: 2006-11-08
I put scans of the Rocky Mountain Owners
manual that came with the bike up now also. The warranty is on pages 24
and 25, the sections it refers to (4, 5, 6, 7, and 8) start on pages 5, 9, 12, 19
and 21. There is no mention of pressure anywhere in there, the word does not
even appear, there is some mention of "Bicycle Suspension" on page 19, however
not much can be worked out from that.
I also have a Fox shock owners manual which recommends sag to have set up with
the float shock, which is the approximate 1 cm of sag on the shaft I had with
the psi in my shock at 150. However there is no table anywhere with the bag of
stuff I received upon purchase of the bike that details the recommended
pressure to have in this shock on this frame for a given rider weight. As I
said it is damn hard to work it out.
Mon Apr 5 2004
1600x1200 |
Side view away from the drivetrain. |
1600x1200 |
Closer look at the controls. Jim thinks the barends and computer make
it too busy, oh well both are necessary IMO. |
1600x1200 |
Front wheel showing off the pr0nish forks. |
1600x1200 |
Looking towards the back of the bike at frame height. |
|
1600x1200 |
Closer look at the front triangle. Rocky finally made the Element a 4 inch
travel bike for 2004, this is a good thing IMO. It meant changing the
rocker a bit, still pedals well though (Fox pro pedal RL shock) |
1600x1200 |
A look at the drive train (I love the look of the 2004 Evolve XC
cranks, and you will note we made some effort to colour
coordination. White forks, white bidon cage, white rear
derailleur. |
1600x1200 |
The accessory I got for the bike, thanks to Richard Bontjer for the
suggestion. A Futurama bendy Bender doll. Thus you can all "bite my
shiny metal arse" <g> |
|
Since the photos were taken I changed the cluster from a SRAM 7.0 with a 34
tooth large sprocket to a 9.0 with a 32 tooth large sprocket, the short cage
9.0 SL derailleur didnt like the 34 tooth sprocket, I didnt care as I never
really wanted 34 (it was all Mal had in stock at the time in 7.0, he gave me
the 9.0 instead so I am not complaining).
Also I am waiting for a new pair of those bar ends (profile designs "tomac")
which I will put on this bike and move this pair back to the HT. I like these
bar ends as they are large circumference (almost as wide as a grip on the
handle bar) and still have the bit at the end for the steep up hills.
Changes from standard spec were
- Marzocchi Marathon SL forks replacing RockShox Duke XC
- SRAM 9.0 Gripshift Shifters to replace Shimano LX Rapdifire
- SRAM 9.0 SL rear derailleur to replace Shimano XT rear derailleur
- SRAM PC99 chain to replace Shimano HG53-9 chain
- SRAM 9.0 9 speed cluster to replace Shimano Deore 9 speed cluster
- Maxxis Bling Bling front tyre to replace Hutchison Python 2.0
- WTB Rocket V (red trim) to replace Custom Selle Italia Fokus (rocky mtn custom)
Update: Friday October 20th 2006
This morning I
had the frame on this bike snap clean through. So the Rocky Mountain
Element 50 frame broke after 2.5 years or so of use. I have returned it to the
shop I bought it from and hopefully the Australian distributors will get a
replacement for me soon.
Communications between myself, Advance Traders and
Rocky Mountain Bicycles
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 11:38:30 +1100
From: Steven Hanley <sjh@svana.org>
Subject: LONG [jeff@rockymountain: RE: my broken rocky mountain Element 50]
Reply-To: Steven Hanley <sjh@svana.org>
Hmm
Well it seems no warranty is forthcoming at all.
At the moment I can not remmeber why I was using 150 psi all the time (I can
not find my rocky mountain owners manual right now). As I am not an engineer
I do not understand how low shock pressure can be the cause of frame
failure. 150 psi seemd to work fine.
See You
Steve
----- Forwarded message from Jeff Hanninen <jeff@bikes.com> -----
From: Jeff Hanninen <jeff@rockymountain>
To: 'Steven Hanley' <sjh@svana.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 09:26:21 -0800
Subject: RE: my broken rocky mountain Element 50
Hello Steven,
Thanks for the pictures and the detailed email trail.
However this went through all the proper channels at Rocky and at Advance
Traders and everyone is standing behind their decision to offer you the
front triangle at a discounted price and to decline the warranty claim, and
I have to stand behind their decision.
Just as a side note I would recommend that you start running at least your
wieght in the rear shock in lbs.
You said you are about 85kgs so 190lbs therefore you need at least 190 psi.
Fox rear shocks are rated to 300psi.
They are also customed valved to work specifically with our frames and are
designed for optimal performance with this weight to psi ratio in mind.
If you have any other questions feel free to contact me.
Jeff Hanninen
Rocky Mountain Bicycles
International Sales Representative
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hanley [mailto:sjh@svana.org]
Sent: 31-Oct-06 3:56 PM
To: Jeff from Rocky Mountain
Subject: my broken rocky mountain Element 50
Importance: Low
Jeff
The photos can be found at http://svana.org/photos/rockymtn/
The frame broke at the end of leading a ride with around 15 people in Majura
Pines in Canberra Friday week ago.
I tend to lead a lot of rides (2 or so mountain bike rides a week with
between 4 an 25 people depending on the time of year and the planned ride)
and
almost never ride by myself thus there are a lot of people who can point out
I am not a rough rider and that I do not jump my bikes or do silly things on
them that would be likely to cause them to break.
The shop I bought the bike from in 2004 ( who sell a lot of Rocky Mountain
bikes (including 2 of them to the CORC president (one for him and one for his
wife, partly on my reccomendation)) so they have experience with the product
and the owner of the shop is often out on rides with me) measured the shock
pressure at 125 psi, I have been running it at around 145 to 155 when ever I
pump it up (every two or so weeks) as that feels right and when I tie a zip
tie around the shaft it does not get pushed off so it is not bottoming out.
I am surprised that the lack of shock pressure is the reason given for
rejecting a warranty claim on a 2.5 year old element. Mostly because I do
not understand how it could cause a bike to break if it is not bottoming
out.
I chose the rocky mountain because your bikes have a great reputation around
the world, I already had one friend locally who has had a Rocky Mountain
Instinct for years (he purchased in the US about 6 years ago) and it always
seemed to be a great bike.
One of my friends (Peter Jalowenko) who often rides on mountain bike rides I
lead bought a Rocky Mountain ETSx a while back (again partly because I
recommended the brand) and he had some thoughts on this issue also which I
have included below. Peter in the last few weeks has had to have his frame
returned to you as it had cracked and you have provided him with a
replacement.
After staff at Maladjusted told me the response from Advance Traders I have
sent them an email. My communication with advance traders has been this
***********
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:52:16 +1000
From: Steven Hanley <sjh@svana.org>
To: Advance Traders
Subject: my broken Rocky Mountain Element 50
Dear Advanced Traders
I just spoke with a staff member at the shop I purchased my Rocky Mountain at
in Canberra about my broken Rocky Mountain Element 50 (2004 Model, Red, 20.0"
size according to the 2004 catlog)
He has informed me you are refusing to replace my front triangle under
warranty.
I am somewhat dissapointed to hear this, Ryan mentioned you said the shock
had too little air pressure. I have not heard or felt the shock bottom out
on any ride in the last few months, the bike sat about 1" into its travel
when I sat on it so all seemed fine, thus I continued using the pressure
that seemed to work.
I purchased the bike in April 2004, I was unable to use the bike for around
1 month in 2005 because the derailleur hanger broke
(http://svana.org/sjh/diary/2005/09/01#2005-09-01_01 and
http://svana.org/sjh/diary/2005/10/20#2005-10-20_03 for details) at the
time I was told you did not stock the appropriate hanger, which meant I had
to wait for one from overseas ordered myself)
Then this year I was unable to use the bike for around 3 months when a bolt
in one of the pivots snapped and you did not have any stock of the bolts or
new pivot kits and I had to wait until you got one to Maladjusted.
So in the 2.5 years I have owned this bike, 4 or 5 months of that time I
have been unable to ride it, and now I am told that the frame snapping clean
through near a weld on the seat tube is not covered by warranty? This is a
point on the frame I have seen many Giant NRS' fail (5 of them) just below
or just above the pivot weld on the frame), also this model bike (2004
Element) was the first year rocky mountain went from 3" to 4" travel at the
back.
I have 3 mountain bikes, one of which, a steel hard tail I ride more than
the duallie anyway so in the past 2.5 years my Element 50 has not even been
ridden for 50% of my mountain bike riding.
So sure I ride a bike more than most people (as staff at Maladjusted may
attest to) however it surprises me that a frame broken at this position is
not considered to be faulty in some manner.
I had a look at http://www.bikes.com/about/warranty.aspx and admittedly due
to the fact the frame was somewhat dirty looking (so I did not sit down and
clean the broken frame after iut broke as I am sure a number of people do),
and I do not clean the bike more than once a month generally), but a
triangular frame should not break in the middle of a tube unless there is
something wrong there I think. I would be happy to take the frame to some of
my colleagues (Engineering department at Australian National University (I
work in the College of Engineering and Computer Science who know a lot more
about this than I do) and ask them for some expert advice on the break in
the frame if you require such? (who knows I may be wrong)
It would also be nice to hear what Rocky Mountain in Canada have to say on
this, if there is a contact email address to for them so they could have a
look at the photos. http://svana.org/sjh/diary/2006/10/20#2006-10-20_01
I decided to buy a Rocky Mountain because they have been around since very
early in the mountain bike world and have a great reputation for the quality
and ride of their bikes. I chose the 3dlink based suspension frame because
it
is a tried and true design that had been in heavy use for 6 years or more
by the time I bought one. I would like to think this frame breaking so early
in it's life is an abberation.
Cheers
See You
Steve
The response from Advance Traders
>From advancetraders.com.au Mon Oct 30 15:33:01 2006
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:32:39 +1000
From: Karl Butler <advancetraders.com.au>
To: sjh@svana.org
Subject: RE: my broken Rocky Mountain Element 50
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your email. The pictures sent by Mal Adjusted (I guess
forwarded from you?) were sent to Rocky Mountain along with the claim as
is the standard procedure with Rocky Mountain warranty claims.
You claim has been declined due to too low pressure in the rear shock as
this can create excessive stress through the frame. Even though this
was the first year Rocky Mountain extended the XC frame to 100mm travel
(2004 range), the warranty guy in Canada reports not having seen this
type of crack in either the XC Element range or All Mountain Slayers
with this design and running 125mm travel (2003 - 2005). Rocky Mountain
have offered a replacement front triangle for you at an exceptionally
low price, given that normal declined warranties are offered complete
frames at regular price ($3200SRP).
You are correct in saying that a standard triangle frame should not
break in the middle of the tube, which would probably be a sufficient
point if the bike were a hardtail. But, because you have a moving rear
end, it's highly likely that excess force (due to heavy impact and / or
undersprung shock) through a certain area will cause the problem you
have experienced. "The key to it's design is that it doesn't rely on
the shock as a structural component of the suspension." (Rocky Mountain
2004 catalogue - Element - Design). If the shock were a structural part
of the design I would expect the shaft of the shock to bear the brunt of
the force and bend, or the shock bolts to do the same instead of the
force being transmitted through the frame.
Giant NRS bicycles are completely different to anything on offer from
Rocky Mountain so to try and compare the two doesn't really register.
NRS frames had an annoying tendency to bend shock shafts due to the
force required to break the top out effect and move the shock after it
had 'locked out'. Having only ridden a loan NRS once and not worked for
Giant at all, I can only guess that over inflation or worn out shocks
caused the frame cracks there.
In regards to your previous inconvenience with Rocky Mountain small
parts, I can only apologise there. We do try to keep all parts in
stock, especially hangers (for which I can't recall that one being out
of stock ever in my time here so there may have been some crossed wires
with the shop there). Again apologies with the pivot bolt, although I'm
proud to report that these kits are now all in stock for our Rocky
Mountain customers should the need arise.
Best Regards,
Karl Butler
Warranty / Technical Support Supervisor
Advance Traders
www.advancetraders.com.au
***********
And some of the things Peter was wondering about with respect to my broken
rocky mountain.
***********
* My concerns about Rocky's reputation, given what I know of your experience
* My concerns about Rocky reliability given my similar frame issue
* The fact that at least one acquaintance recently took Rocky off his list of
duallie options, choosing instead a Canondale, based in part on his
concerns about Rocky reliability and support
* My observation that friends on Canondales, Scotts, Specialized, Giants and
Treks don't seem to be experiencing the same reliability issues, often in
spite of them tending less attention to bike maintenance (exaggeration
perhaps, and perhaps a statistical anomaly)
* My observation that you are well known in the cycling community and
considered an expert in just about all cycling matters. That your opinion
is widely sought on all matters relating to cycling, from correct
maintenance, accessory and parts advice through to opinions on complete
bikes.
* My belief that you are exceptionally experienced in bike maintenance and
that I cannot imagine that one of your bikes would fail through lack of
proper care and maintenance
* From the ten MTB rides or so I've done with you this year I've never seen
you ride the Element
* My particular concern that Rocky would use the excuse of low pressure in
the rear shock, especially as yours wasn't bottoming out. How is it
designed to cope with lock-out then? What if the shock fails during a long
ride? How come there is no warning in Rocky literature (to be confirmed)
that low pressure can lead to frame failure?
Or a shorter one stating my concern about reliability and support, based on my
experience, the fact that I don't even consider that I ride the ETSX more than
twice a month, what I'd heard about yours, word from Mal's that other Rocky
frames had been returned, asking for reassurance that I had wisely paid a
premium for what I thought would be a higher quality cycle, and that Rocky
won't look for any possible excuse to avoid future warranty claims from me.
***********
Cheers
See You
Steve
--
gonna peel you out, of your protective shell
or i might just have to, break right in there, and raise some hell
Circle Of Light - Imperfectly - Ani
----- End forwarded message -----
--
Steven Hanley sjh@svana.org http://svana.org/sjh/diary
i think of your letters as love letters, which is how i think of songs
in that it is the writing of these things, that tend to carry us along
Soft Shoulder - To The Teeth - Ani
Steven Hanley <sjh@svana.org>
Last modified: Thu Nov 02 16:30:07 EST 2006
